German Premium Cruisers - More Speculation!

Istvan56
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Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Location: Nampa, Idaho

German Premium Cruisers - More Speculation!

Postby Istvan56 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:59 pm

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In my examination of the German Cruiser Tree I noted there were several differences from mr3awsome's long maintained thread on "What we know about Ships". Those missing cruisers, where will they go? I believe they will be premiums to be offered at various marketable times by the Devs. Here is what I am expecting to see later on:

Tier II SMS Emden (1908)
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This is the most famous and first of the Emden light cruisers. She was the fastest member of Admiral Graf Spee's Ostasiengeschwader who was left behind as a diversion with the mission to raise as much hell as she could before the Allies found her. She got as far as Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean before being sunk by a light cruiser of the Royal Australian Navy, HMAS Sydney off of Direction Island of the Cocos Islands. On her way she managed to sink a Russian protected cruiser that out-gunned her (had she been properly commanded and crewed), a French destroyer and 17 Allied merchantmen plus stopped a few more merchantmen she let go usually with the crews of the ships she captured and/or sank including the survivors of the French destroyer. Her skipper, Fregattenkapitän Karl von Müller (later Kapitän zur See, was a gentleman who followed the old "cruiser rules" to a "T" and the honors she won were passed on to two successive ships named after her by having the Iron Cross on their bows. Fortunately he survived the Battle of Cocos and returned to Germany in 1918 due to his malaria that he picked up during his overseas service. He died at age 49 likely due to the sickness he picked up while commanding Emden.

Tier III KM Niobe
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Picture courtesy of shipbucket.com member Alvama, all rights reserved

This ship was the Holland-class armored cruiser Gelderland (1898) when Germany invaded the Netherlands. She was commissioned into the Kriegsmarine and after serving as a training ship was reclassified as a Schwimmende Flakbatterie or "Floating AA Battery". Since the cruiser still had her steam engines she was not fixed to a single port and in 1944 was sent to help defend Kotka, Finland, the most bombed port city in WW-II. The Soviets, on the mission to sink Finland's only coastal battleship mistakenly attacked the Niobe instead with 132 attack craft including an entire air regiment of torpedo bombers on June 16, 1944. The Niobe didn't stand a chance but she acquitted herself well with guns firing as she sank to the harbor bottom. At least one Lend-Lease A-20 attack bomber was downed by the Niobe's crew.

In game this ship would be a possible contemporary to the Yubari as an early AA defensive ship. While slow (16 knots as Niobe) she would be a great escort to BB's and CV's who lack AA defenses.
Class and type: Holland-class armored cruiser
Displacement: 4,100 t
Length: 94.76 m (310.9 ft)
Beam: 14.76 m (48.4 ft)
Draught: 5.4 m (18 ft)
Propulsion: Two 3-cycle triple expansion engines
12 Yarrow boilers
2 shafts
10,500 PS
Speed: as Gelderland: 19.5 kn (36.1 km/h; 22.4 mph) (1914)
as Niobe: 16 kn (30 km/h; 18 mph) (1944)
Complement: 397
Sensors and processing systems as Niobe:
2× FlaK-Kommandogeräte (optical range finders)
1× Würzburg radar
Armament: as Niobe:
8× 10.5 cm FlaK L/45 C/32
4× 40 mm Bofors L/60
4× quad 20 mm (4×4) Vierlinge C/38

Tier IV-V KM Emden (1925)
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Picture courtesy shipbucket.com member DG_Alpha, all rights reserved

As I mentioned in the German Cruiser Tech Tree thread I was very surprised not to see the KM Emden. However, it is a single ship class and due to the Treaty of Versailles the Reichsmarine was limited at the time of building to WW-I surplus 5.9" (150 mm) guns in single mounts laid out to pre-war standards. Fortunately she went through a number of upgrades, in 1933 her coal fired plant was converted to oil fired. In 1934 her four (2 x 2) torpedo launchers were upgraded from 20" (500 mm) to 21" (533 mm). In 1939 her AA suite was upgraded from two, then four 37 mm AA guns plus eighteen 20 mm AA guns (quads and singles). In 1942 her old 150 mm SK L/45 guns were replaced by modern 150 mm Tbts KC/36 guns, she lost half of her four torpedo tubes but had her AA suite again upgraded to a total of nine 37 mm guns and twenty-four 20 mm guns.

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As a Tier IV I expect the Emden to be this 1933 version:
Displacement: Standard: 5,300 long tons (5,400 t)
Full load: 6,990 long tons (7,100 t)
Length: 155.1 m (508 ft 10 in)
Beam: 14.2 m (46 ft 7 in)
Draft: 5.3 m (17 ft 5 in)
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 2 shafts, 10 boilers, 46,500 shp (34,700 kW)
Speed: 29.5 kn (54.6 km/h; 33.9 mph)
Range: 6,700 nmi (12,400 km; 7,700 mi) at 15 kn (28 km/h; 17 mph)
Boats and landing craft carried: 6
Complement: 19–30 officers
445–653 enlisted men
Armament: 8 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns
3 × 8.8 cm (3.5 in) secondary DP guns
4 × 50 cm (20 in) torpedo tubes (dual launchers per side)
Armor: Belt: 50 mm (2.0 in)
Deck: 40 mm (1.6 in)
Conning tower: 100 mm (3.9 in)

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If she came in as a Tier V premium I would expect her to be the 1939 version:
Armament: 8 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns
3 × 8.8 cm (3.5 in) secondary DP guns
3 x dual and single 3.7 cm AA guns
24 x quad and single 2 cm AA guns
2 x single 2 cm AA guns
4 × 53.3 cm (21 in) torpedo tubes (dual launchers per side)

Tier VI-VII Spähkreuzer (1938) or (1940)
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Both pictures courtesy of shipbucket.com member Ashley, all rights reserved
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The Spähkreuzer - Reconnaissance Cruiser were large destroyer leader type light cruisers ala the US Navy's Atlanta-class or Soviet Navy's Tashkent-class. Only one, SP-1 or Z-40, was laid down but it suffered severe damage during a 1942 air raid and was scrapped. They would be an interesting counter to those two ships. There were minor differences in AA gun layout between the three versions, SP-1 (1938), SP-2 (1939) and SP-3 (1940) which would've been numbered Z-40, Z-41, and Z-42 in Kriegsmarine service.
Displacement: 5,700 long tons (5,791 t)
Length: 475 ft (145 m)
Beam: 45 ft (14 m)
Draft: 15 ft (4.6 m)
Propulsion: 2 × MAN 6-cylinder diesel engines
Speed: 36 knots (41 mph; 67 km/h)
Range: 7,000 nmi (13,000 km) at 17 kn (20 mph; 31 km/h)
Complement: 200
Armament: • 6 × 5.9 in (150 mm) guns
• 2 × 88 mm AA
• 8 × 37 mm AA
• 8 × 20 mm AA
• 10 × 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes
Armor: Belt: 1 in (25 mm)
Deck: 1 in (25 mm)

Tier VI-VII Deutschland-class heavy cruisers
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Picture of KM Admiral Scheer as she appeared in Operation Wunderland in 1942, courtesy of http://www.allworldwars.com, all rights reserved

I've already had the argument in my German Cruiser thread about the nature of the panzerschiff, were they "pocket battleships" as the British called them or proper "schwerer kreuzer" or heavy cruisers as the Kriegsmarine classified them? Only the Devs will decide that but as they are not in the cruiser tree I speculate that they might be coming out as premium ships. We could see any one of the three, Graf Spee, Admiral Scheer or Deutschland / Lützow, the lead ship himself.
Class and type: Deutschland-class cruiser
Displacement: Design:
12,630 t (12,430 long tons; 13,920 short tons)
Full load:
14,290 long tons (14,520 t)
Length: 186 m (610 ft 3 in)
Beam: 21.69 m (71 ft 2 in)
Draft: 7.25 m (23 ft 9 in)
Propulsion:
Eight MAN diesel engines
Two propellers
52,050 shp (38,810 kW)
Speed: 28 knots (52 km/h)
Range: 10,000 nautical miles (19,000 km; 12,000 mi) at 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph)
Complement: As built:
33 officers
586 enlisted
After 1935:
30 officers
921–1,040 enlisted
Sensors and processing systems:
1940:
FMG 39 G(gO)
1941:
FMG 39 G(gO)
FuMO 26
Armament: As built:
6 × 28 cm (11 in) in triple turrets
8 × 15 cm (5.9 in) in single turrets
8 × 53.3 cm (21.0 in) torpedo tubes
Armor:
main turrets: 140 mm (5.5 in)
belt: 80 mm (3.1 in)
deck: 45 mm (1.8 in)
Aircraft carried: Two Arado Ar 196 seaplanes
Aviation facilities: One catapult
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ShermanMedium
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:11 pm

Re: German Premium Cruisers - More Speculation!

Postby ShermanMedium » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:33 pm

Is there a difference between the SPC1938 and SPC1940?

Tier 7: Deutschland
Tier 8: D class
Tier 9: P class
Tier 10: ?
Istvan56
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Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:41 pm
Location: Nampa, Idaho

Re: German Premium Cruisers - More Speculation!

Postby Istvan56 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:58 pm

The differences between SPC-1938, SPC-1939 and SPC-1940 were layouts of secondary guns, AA guns and torpedo tubes as shown between the two pics I put up. The three were all the same class but with each improved slightly. The Devs would just have to pick one out of the three for a premium.

The Deutschland, D-class and P-class are all debatable (and have been hotly debated) as to whether they are battlecruisers or as the Germans and I put them, merely [extra] heavy cruisers. On the Devs cruiser tree they have a Deutschland at Tier X, it can't be the Deutschland-class as they just aren't strong enough for a Tier X placement so they must use the name for another ship since the earlier Deutschland was renamed Lutzlow (since the Lutzlow of the Hipper-class was sold to the Russians and renamed three more times :lol: ).

So where do these fit in if they are cruisers? The balancing act comes when comparing DPM for 6 x 11" guns vs. 8-12 x 8" guns (latter is Buffalo-class) of their rivals as well as secondaries, AA, torpedoes and armor, each must be able to fit within its tier equivalents while giving the German tree a unique experience/flavor. The only way the P-class would be Tier X material is if they went with the proposed 2nd design that had 3 turrets instead of 2 for 9 x 11" guns. But if you do that they you do have an Alaska-class equivalent though Alaska-class' 9 x 12" guns and armor are superior. And we still don't know what tier the Devs are putting Alaska and in what tree. They have said they are putting her in.

There would be few differences between a Scharnhorst-class battlecruiser and a P-class heavy cruiser if three turrets with 11" guns were mounted and the former definitely is in the Battleship tree as are the O-class battlecruisers with their 15" guns. So the Devs have a problem then where to place these ships.
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