German Cruiser Tree - Speculation Abounds!

Istvan56
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German Cruiser Tree - Speculation Abounds!

Postby Istvan56 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:43 pm

The German Cruiser Tech Tree

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Ever since WoWs released this German Cruiser Tech Tree speculation has abounded about the Tier VII, IX and X ships. These names are familiar as older representatives of classes and as proposed ships, but not as cruisers specifically. So lets look at each tier and try to figure out what would these paper ships be.

Tier I Hermelin
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Picture courtesy of Nhat Tai Nguyen from World of Warships

I introduced the KM Hermelin in this thread so I won't repeat myself.

Tier II Dresden-class
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Picture courtesy of Nhat Tai Nguyen from World of Warships

Again I introduced the Dresden-class in this thread. The SMS Emden (1908) may be a premium ship so the standard ship will be slightly different in stats. After its Supertest (NDA so no data) and play test (0.4.0.4) it was withdrawn until October when we should see both SMS Dresden (1907) and possibly SMS Emden (1908) appear.

Tier III Kolberg-class
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Picture courtesy of http://www.shipbucket.com by member WhyMe

The Kolberg-class of Kaiserliche Marine light cruisers were the successors to the Dresden-class. The four members of this class were unique in that they were used as test beds for different engine models but all had similar characteristics to previous German light cruisers, not terribly fast nor well armed. They had a top speed of 26 knots and each carried a dozen 4.1" (105 mm) guns plus six 2" (52 mm) AA guns. This will be the basic Hull A model.

In 1916-17 two of the ships were upgraded completely replacing their main and AA armaments. They each received six single 5.9" (150mm) guns, two 3.5" (88 mm) AA guns and two 20" (500 mm) deck torpedo launchers in addition of their two 17.7" (450 mm) submerged ones. I expect this to be the Hull B variant.

Two of the four ships were lost in action during WW-I and the other two were awarded as prizes to the victors, one served in the French Navy on colonial service until 1927 and the other went to Japan where it was scrapped.

Tier IV Karlsruhe-class
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Picture courtesy of http://www.shipbucket.com by member WhyMe

I was expecting the Reichsmarine (RM) built Emden (1925) rather than the Karlsruhe-class. The Karlsruhe-class are a definite improvement over the Kolberg-class light cruisers but are another pre-WW-I design while the Emden too was a WW-I type ship it had some modernization later on including upgraded armament.

The Karlsruhe-class are larger, faster (29 knots), better armored (having an armor belt like a battleship though it was only 2.4" (60 mm) thick), yet they still suffered from having weak guns, twelve 4.1" (105 mm) main guns in single mounts scattered about the ship. This class had a fast rudder shift but suffered significant speed loss (up to 60%) during hard turns.

Both ships of this class were lost by mid WW-I. The Karlsruhe was a successful commerce raider off of Brazil capturing or destroying 16 merchantmen until an internal explosion destroyed her with the loss of most of her crew. Her sistership, Rostock, was scuttled the morning after the Battle of Jutland to prevent capture by the Royal Navy. Had they lasted longer they likely would've seen upgrades like the predecessors had. That "what if" factor may give them a Hull B upgrade since that was something the Kaiserliche Marine was doing with many of their warships right up to the end of the war.

Tier V Königsberg-class
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Picture courtesy of http://www.navypedia.org, all rights reserved
In error I had the wrong Königsberg-class, this is the series of 3 light cruisers dubbed the K-class built by the Reichsmarine in the late 1920's according to the limits of the Treaty of Versailles. They were armed with nine 5.9" (150 mm) guns with one forward and two offset aft. All three were lost during WW-II.
Class and type: Königsberg class light cruiser
Displacement: 7,700 long tons (7,800 t)
Length: 174 m (571 ft)
Beam: 15.3 m (50 ft)
Draft: 6.28 m (20.6 ft)
Propulsion: 3 shafts, two MAN 10-cylinder diesels, four geared turbines
Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph)
Range: 5,700 nmi (10,600 km; 6,600 mi) at 19 kn (35 km/h; 22 mph)
Complement: 21 officers
493 enlisted men
Armament: 9 × 15 cm SK C/25 guns
2 × 8.8 cm SK L/45 anti-aircraft guns
12 × 50 cm torpedoes
120 mines
Armor: Belt: 50 mm (2.0 in)
Deck: 40 mm (1.6 in)
Conning tower: 100 mm (3.9 in)
Aircraft: (Köln only) Flettner Fl 282 Kolibri observation helicopter
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Tier VI Nürnberg
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Picture courtesy of http://www.the-blueprints.com, all rights reserved
The Nürnberg is the second and last member of the Leipzig-class built by the Reichsmarine (Weimar Republic navy) and has the distinction of being the longest surviving ship of the Kriegsmarine, albeit in Soviet Navy service, post-World War 2. The Nürnberg was built to slight different specifications than the Leipzig and were there more of the class built it might have qualified as its own subclass. Lacking those numbers I am puzzled why the Devs chose a single ship over a ship class which is their normal custom for a standard tiered ship. Furthermore, I was expecting to see the Leipzig-class here and the Nürnberg as a Russian Tier VI premium as the Admiral Makarov.
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Picture of Admiral Makarov courtesy of http://www.navypedia.org, all rights reserved

Tier VII Yorck
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Thanks to Ashley on the Shipbucket forum thread on the M-class for this drawing

I would personally prefer the Deutschland-class cruisers to be here but those are likely to be a premium instead of a standard Tier VII ship due to their heavy armament. My personal speculation, and I'm not alone on this, is the M-class cruiser project (six ships labeled M-R) that was laid down (M & N) by the Kriegsmarine in 1938 but never finished will take the Deutschland's place. They had good guns and were fast but seriously lacked armor. Their armor was worse than most of the previous tier cruisers down to Tier III. They tried to fix that with cruisers Q and R, (Hull B anyone?) which is why they displace more, it is all added armor which they needed badly. Here are the stats on them and you will see:
Type: Light cruiser
Displacement: 8,500 tonnes (8,366 long tons) (M, N, O, P)
9,300 tonnes (9,153 long tons) (Q, R)
Length: 183 m (600 ft) (M, N, O, P)
196 m (643 ft) (Q, R)
Beam: 17 m (56 ft) (M, N, O, P)
18 m (59 ft) (Q, R)
Draft: 5.42 m (17.8 ft) (M, N, O, P)
5.40 m (17.7 ft) (Q, R)
Speed: 35.5 knots (65.7 km/h; 40.9 mph) (M, N, O, P)
36 knots (67 km/h; 41 mph) (Q, R)
Range: 8,000 nmi (15,000 km) at 19 kn (35 km/h) (M, N, O, P)
12,000 nmi (22,000 km) at 19 knots (35 km/h; 22 mph) (Q, R)
Complement: 28 officers
892 men
Armament:
8 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns
4 × 8.8 cm (3.5 in) AA
8 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) AA
4 × 2 cm (0.79 in) AA
8 × 53 cm (21 in) torpedo tubes
60 mines
Armor: Belt: 2 in (51 mm)
Deck: 1 in (25 mm)
Turret: 1 in (25 mm)
Aircraft carried: 2 × Arado 196 seaplanes
Aviation facilities: 1 × steam catapult
Blueprints for the M-class can be found here


Tier VIII Admiral Hipper-class
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Picture courtesy of The Ship Model forum

Everyone knows about the Admiral Hipper-class heavy cruisers and are drooling to get a hold of them, especially the KM Prinz Eugen (mine, mine, mine!).
Type: heavy cruiser
Displacement: Design:
16,170 t (15,910 long tons; 17,820 short tons)
Full load:
18,200 long tons (18,500 t)
Length: 202.8 m (665 ft 4 in) overall
Beam: 21.3 m (69 ft 11 in)
Draft: Full load: 7.2 m (24 ft)
Propulsion:
3 × Blohm & Voss steam turbines
3 × three-blade propellers
132,000 shp (98 MW)
Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph)
Range: 6,800 nmi (12,600 km; 7,800 mi) at 20 kn (37 km/h; 23 mph)
Complement:
42 officers
1,340 enlisted
Armament:
8 × 20.3 cm (8.0 in) guns
12 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) guns
12 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) guns
8 × 2 cm (0.79 in) guns (20 × 1)
6 × 53.3 cm (21 in) torpedo tubes
Armor:
Belt: 70 to 80 mm (2.8 to 3.1 in)
Armor deck: 20 to 50 mm (0.79 to 1.97 in)
Turret faces: 105 mm (4.1 in)
Aircraft carried: 3 aircraft
Aviation facilities: 1 catapult

Tier IX Roon-class
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Picture by Wikiacommons user Haratio Fales, all rights reserved

Despite the Deutschland-class not being included in the normal cruiser tree I expect that the Z-Plan would be followed and that the Roon-class would be the finished Kriegsmarine D-class cruisers Ersatz Elsass and Ersatz Hessen. These are not battlecruisers but cruiser killers and commerce raiders. There were two ships planned for this class but only one ship was laid down and it was cancelled 5 months later in 1934. There were problems with the 19,000 ton limit set for this design. Later, due to French building the Dunkerque-class ships the weight limit was dropped so more armor and a third turret could be added but these changes were never implemented.
Type: Heavy cruiser
Displacement: 20,000 tons
Length: 230 m (750 ft)
Beam: 25.5 m (84 ft)
Draft: 8.5 m (28 ft)
Propulsion: Turbines, 125,000 shp
Speed: 29 knots (54 km/h; 33 mph)
Armament:
6 × 28 cm (11 in) SK L/52 guns (2 × 3)
8 × 15 cm (5.9 in) SK L/55 guns
8 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/65 AA guns
Armor:
Belt: 220mm (8.7")
Armor deck: 35 to 80 mm (1.4" to 3.1")
Conning Tower: 300 mm (12")
Citadel: 50 mm (2")
Aircraft carried: 3 aircraft
Aviation facilities: 1 catapult

Tier X Hindenberg-class
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Thanks to Ashley again on the Shipbucket forum thread on the P-class for this drawing

After the D-class was cancelled interest in a successor to the Deutschland-class was renewed in 1937, this time looking at building 9 of these heavy cruisers. Work was cancelled with the start of the war as the supreme leader of Germany thought the war would be over so soon that these ships wouldn't be needed. Besides, who needed the P-class when there was the O-class of battlecruisers also to attract Der Furher's gaze. :roll:

Type: Heavy cruiser
Displacement: 23,700 t (23,300 long tons; 26,100 short tons) design
Length: 230 m (750 ft)
Beam: 26 m (85 ft)
Draft: 7.2 m (24 ft)
Propulsion: 12 MAN 9-cylinder diesels, 165,000 shp
Speed: 33 knots (61 km/h) maximum
Range:
25,000 nautical miles (46,000 km) at 13 knots (24 km/h)
15,000 nautical miles (28,000 km) at 19 knots (35 km/h)
Armament:
6 × 28 cm (11 in) guns
4 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns
4 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) AA guns
4 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) AA guns
6 × 53.3 cm (21.0 in) torpedo tubes
Armor:
Barbettes: 80 to 100 mm (3.1 to 3.9 in)
Belt: 40 to 120 mm (1.6 to 4.7 in)
Deck: 70 mm (2.8 in)
Torpedo bulkhead: 30 mm (1.2 in)
Aircraft carried: 2 × Arado 196 seaplanes
Aviation facilities: 2 × steam catapults
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ShermanMedium
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Posts: 5
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Re: German Cruiser Tree - Speculation Abounds!

Postby ShermanMedium » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:51 pm

I'd think that the Deutschland, D, and P classes would have their own tree, and Roon and Hindenburg being obscure paper designs renamed so people couldn't find them.
Istvan56
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Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:41 pm
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Re: German Cruiser Tree - Speculation Abounds!

Postby Istvan56 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:58 pm

That's been the issue, would we see a Battlecruiser tree and do these German cruisers fit into it? They aren't 8" heavy cruisers and aren't battlecruisers either. WG as not indicated they see them as battlecruisers, neither the Germans, since they had those separately, including the O-class battlecruiser project I mentioned. The Germans had their best battlecruiser not in the O-class but in the 1915 Ersatz Yorck-class which, if modernized like the Kongo class, would've been a good battleship class in WW-II to face the Royal Navy with. Fortunately for our side they weren't completed by WW-I's end and the Treaty of Versailles did away with any idea of a Dreadnought battleship or modern battlecruiser in the Reichsmarine.

For the navies that were Treaty of Washington bound the definition of light cruisers and heavy cruisers was set but for nations such as Germany and the Soviet Union, they weren't bound by it and so they armed their cruisers with artillery that didn't fit with the conventions. So we see Russian ships with 180mm guns yet they were built as light cruisers and we see panzerschiffs with 11" main guns that the Germans still considered as heavy cruisers. As for battlecruisers, by the end of WW-I they were sporting 14"-15" guns, 11'-12" were considered too light by both sides which is why the WW-II O-class would have six 15" (380 mm) guns in two twin turrets instead of the P class' six 11" (283 mm).

The Panzerschiffs were designed as commerce raiders and as such would have to defeat the British cruisers that tended to be the largest ships escorting them. They were not meant to face the enemy battleships or battlecruisers. In a way the Panzerschiff idea was going backwards to the Armored Cruiser of pre-Dreadnought days. Those had become obsolete with the advent of the battlecruiser which concept Germany embraced for WW-I. What the Germans saw in WW-II was a different situation, they had been crippled by the Treaty of Versailles so they knew they couldn't match the French, let alone the British in a stand up battle so they sought individual ships that could raise hell on the high seas with Allied shipping and tie up vast amount of naval resources to hunt down. So their ships were created with "outside of the box" thinking and don't fit in. If the Devs can't deal with the reality of what the Germans and Russians were doing and try to find paper ships to fit the "inside the box" classifications of treaty cruisers then they will fail. These two nations need their triangular or star shaped pegs and not be pounded into round/square holes.
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Istvan56
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Posts: 142
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Re: German Cruiser Tree - Speculation Abounds!

Postby Istvan56 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:00 am

Well, we have the answers to paper ships for Tiers VII, XI and X and a preview look at all of the ships past Dresden class at Tier II. Note, it is not going to be a premium after all but a standard ship. That means the famous SMS Emden may yet be a premium Tier II. Sorry but the pictures are from my tech tree preview so they are grayed out as unresearched vessels. I took these photos quickly w/out disabling the gray just so we could see the stats and modules. Just click on the thumbnails for a better view and then use the zoom feature (magnifying glass of course).

Sadly, my hoping that WG would think outside of the box on these trees didn't happen. Plan Z ships of D and P classes aren't here. The Yorck is the only odd duck, having 210 mm main guns and 88 mm secondaries in a layout that looks very much like the Admiral Hipper class. The Roon and Hindenburg classes are laid out like the preceding light cruisers but with 8" (203 mm) guns, 1 triple turret forward and 2 triples aft, a design I find unsatisfactory in WoWs.

Tier III Kolberg class
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Tier IV Karlsruhe class
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Tier V Konigsberg class
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Tier VI Nurnberg class
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Tier VII Yorck class
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Tier VIII Admiral Hipper class
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Tier XI Roon class
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Tier X Hindenburg class
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